This may be long, but you might agree.
This may be long, but you might agree.
Hey Bemani lovers, how is everyone?
Ahh…I see. Well, I have something I’d like to say today. By all means, if you don’t want to read it, you don’t have to and I won’t think less of you for it. But I have not posted anything here in these forums yet and I think it might be time that I do.
First off, I do want to say it’s nice to see some of you around and I’m glad that everyone is well. I haven’t talked to a lot of you since, oh…the Neon fm days, but I am happy there are some core people in the community who have stuck around to help hold it afloat. So, in summary, Nice to see some veterans around.
Now, on to the matter at hand. I was chosen to be a judge for bracket 1 by Bluess and as such, I spent a great deal of time writing reviews for said bracket (9 hours). In Microsoft Word, it was roughly 20 pages of text I had slapped down with a lengthy and detailed review for each step chart for each song. Yes, I wrote about a paragraph of review for each step chart for each song and of course, I also wrote a paragraph for the presentation and even went so far as to add a “personal comments” afterthought about the files at the end. In the personal comments section I included my thoughts on everything as a whole but would mainly address concerns/opinions that we weren’t allowed to actually put judgment on. For example, I would tackle the interpretations of the art, song length/edit or even song choice itself. Anyways, I did the best I could to be as thorough as possible for the benefit of the competition and the entrants.
As it turns out, my entire judging sheet was thrown out the window because Bluess disagreed with me on a few of my judgments. He claimed that I had given “9000 Remix” a higher score than I gave “The Eleventh Hour.” This part is most certainly true. He then asked me ‘why’ (a fair question) and as such, I responded in the best way that I could. I informed him that I play all the files on my feet as well as my hands (I have a nice cobalt flux steel setup) and I base my judging on playing between the two for each file. Yes, for the record, that does mean I played every chart more than once. I then went on to tell him that it was impossible for me to get very far into Eleventh Hour and even on my fingers, the song wasn’t very fun. To witness the entire entry for fair judging, I wound up putting Stepmania on auto play and I sat back for a “wild ride.” After watching the charts, I came to the conclusion that I was very funny and I found it to be a “classic joke entry.” I actually laughed out loud for that one, but because it wasn’t funny AND fun, I didn’t give it any points.
Earlier in the rules, it was clearly noted that this was a DDR step file contest, and not “Pump”, “In The Groove” or even a “Neon fm” step file contest (but maybe I'll hold one of those). The songs were to be a DDR length edit, no hand plants were requested, as well as no mines. This was all part of the rules setup that lead into the Best Mix Tournament. I used these rules to help justify my decisions to Bluess as best I could, but it didn’t work so well. He then accused me of being biased and not giving songs appropriate scores. I then told him that he should go read the rest of the reviews because I thought he was judging me on one file he disagreed with. Unfortunately, I appeared to be correct when he further accused me of being biased because my “personal comments” sections seemed to influence my overall judging. Well, as you may or may not know, I went to great lengths to make sure that I judged files on the criteria previously stated and not anything else. So, with my natural curiosity, I asked Bluess to find an example in my review sheet of which he was referring, and kindly point me in that direction so we could nip this in the bud. His example was my “personal comments” on the song entry “Dark Blue.” He pointed out that I didn’t like the song choice there and then (again) accused me of using that information to make a judgment in which I wasn’t supposed to. Well, for the record, that file received great reviews from me. It got 9/10 in it’s heavy steps alone, and near perfect scores in the other categories judged. So (naturally) I failed to see how my dislike of the song choice in personal comments altered the judging in some negative way, and when I brought this to the attention of Bluess, he had no retort at the ready. Actually, I think that killed most of the conversation.
Sorry this is so long, but I’ll go ahead and wrap this up since I’m sure you’re tired of hearing me blather on and on. My point here is just that I thought (and I could be wrong) that having multiple judges was to obtain multiple opinions so that a medium could be reached to determine an “all around” greatness of each file. I personally feel that the point of judges was to get as many differing opinions as possible so that things could be tallied up. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that just getting 4 or 5 judges to all have the same opinions defeats the point of judging in the first place. It just seems rather counter productive. All in all, I do want to say that this “Best Mix” has been rather disappointing on the whole, and I’m not just saying that because I dislike Bluess or anything. I think Bluess is just fine as far as human beings go, but for another tournament of step files, I think a new “leader” should be named. Mayhaps a vote would work? But only if everyone’s opinions are different.
Thanks for reading and again, I hope everyone is well. Best of luck to all who participated in Best Mix.
-DJ Potatoe
P.S. Bluess said he would post my “denied” judge sheet on the boards in case you folks want to read the massive amounts of feedback I tried to produce. If he doesn’t, maybe you can pm him for a copy.
Ahh…I see. Well, I have something I’d like to say today. By all means, if you don’t want to read it, you don’t have to and I won’t think less of you for it. But I have not posted anything here in these forums yet and I think it might be time that I do.
First off, I do want to say it’s nice to see some of you around and I’m glad that everyone is well. I haven’t talked to a lot of you since, oh…the Neon fm days, but I am happy there are some core people in the community who have stuck around to help hold it afloat. So, in summary, Nice to see some veterans around.
Now, on to the matter at hand. I was chosen to be a judge for bracket 1 by Bluess and as such, I spent a great deal of time writing reviews for said bracket (9 hours). In Microsoft Word, it was roughly 20 pages of text I had slapped down with a lengthy and detailed review for each step chart for each song. Yes, I wrote about a paragraph of review for each step chart for each song and of course, I also wrote a paragraph for the presentation and even went so far as to add a “personal comments” afterthought about the files at the end. In the personal comments section I included my thoughts on everything as a whole but would mainly address concerns/opinions that we weren’t allowed to actually put judgment on. For example, I would tackle the interpretations of the art, song length/edit or even song choice itself. Anyways, I did the best I could to be as thorough as possible for the benefit of the competition and the entrants.
As it turns out, my entire judging sheet was thrown out the window because Bluess disagreed with me on a few of my judgments. He claimed that I had given “9000 Remix” a higher score than I gave “The Eleventh Hour.” This part is most certainly true. He then asked me ‘why’ (a fair question) and as such, I responded in the best way that I could. I informed him that I play all the files on my feet as well as my hands (I have a nice cobalt flux steel setup) and I base my judging on playing between the two for each file. Yes, for the record, that does mean I played every chart more than once. I then went on to tell him that it was impossible for me to get very far into Eleventh Hour and even on my fingers, the song wasn’t very fun. To witness the entire entry for fair judging, I wound up putting Stepmania on auto play and I sat back for a “wild ride.” After watching the charts, I came to the conclusion that I was very funny and I found it to be a “classic joke entry.” I actually laughed out loud for that one, but because it wasn’t funny AND fun, I didn’t give it any points.
Earlier in the rules, it was clearly noted that this was a DDR step file contest, and not “Pump”, “In The Groove” or even a “Neon fm” step file contest (but maybe I'll hold one of those). The songs were to be a DDR length edit, no hand plants were requested, as well as no mines. This was all part of the rules setup that lead into the Best Mix Tournament. I used these rules to help justify my decisions to Bluess as best I could, but it didn’t work so well. He then accused me of being biased and not giving songs appropriate scores. I then told him that he should go read the rest of the reviews because I thought he was judging me on one file he disagreed with. Unfortunately, I appeared to be correct when he further accused me of being biased because my “personal comments” sections seemed to influence my overall judging. Well, as you may or may not know, I went to great lengths to make sure that I judged files on the criteria previously stated and not anything else. So, with my natural curiosity, I asked Bluess to find an example in my review sheet of which he was referring, and kindly point me in that direction so we could nip this in the bud. His example was my “personal comments” on the song entry “Dark Blue.” He pointed out that I didn’t like the song choice there and then (again) accused me of using that information to make a judgment in which I wasn’t supposed to. Well, for the record, that file received great reviews from me. It got 9/10 in it’s heavy steps alone, and near perfect scores in the other categories judged. So (naturally) I failed to see how my dislike of the song choice in personal comments altered the judging in some negative way, and when I brought this to the attention of Bluess, he had no retort at the ready. Actually, I think that killed most of the conversation.
Sorry this is so long, but I’ll go ahead and wrap this up since I’m sure you’re tired of hearing me blather on and on. My point here is just that I thought (and I could be wrong) that having multiple judges was to obtain multiple opinions so that a medium could be reached to determine an “all around” greatness of each file. I personally feel that the point of judges was to get as many differing opinions as possible so that things could be tallied up. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that just getting 4 or 5 judges to all have the same opinions defeats the point of judging in the first place. It just seems rather counter productive. All in all, I do want to say that this “Best Mix” has been rather disappointing on the whole, and I’m not just saying that because I dislike Bluess or anything. I think Bluess is just fine as far as human beings go, but for another tournament of step files, I think a new “leader” should be named. Mayhaps a vote would work? But only if everyone’s opinions are different.
Thanks for reading and again, I hope everyone is well. Best of luck to all who participated in Best Mix.
-DJ Potatoe
P.S. Bluess said he would post my “denied” judge sheet on the boards in case you folks want to read the massive amounts of feedback I tried to produce. If he doesn’t, maybe you can pm him for a copy.
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ER EDITING. I appreciate (and so should everyone else) that you put so much time into this, and it's unfortunate that it's had to come down to this, but I mean, with what you said, I can't really say anything concrete in response, for the simple reason that your sheet isn't out for us to see.
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Re: This may be long, but you might agree.
Heh, you sure are an interesting guy.
Yep, everything he said is true.
He didn't follow the proper judging formats stated (especially presentation) and I clearly told him that, but he didn't care.
When judges don't follow the expected format that everyone else is being held to, then I see nothing wrong with throwing it out.
Hah. As much as everyone tries, everyone has biases, even when they "put them aside". The fact that you were so strongly opinionated and then said it didn't affect your scoring didn't set well with me, but it still wasn't the reason the scores were thrown out.
You didn't follow the guidelines.
haha, be my guest... and is Mayhaps a word?
Ah, I love this. The reason I hadn't posted your judging yet, was because I was going to (and will from the way it looks regarding the other judge) include it in a modified judging system for bracket 1.
See I originally had about 5 judges lined up for bracket 1. Some were judges that had judged before, a few (including DJP) were new to judging. I thought it would make a good variety for varied opinions.
As the first week (the week nothing went on, that gave judges time to get started) I was notified that three of the judges would no longer be able to do it. Ok, I've had that happen before - I'll find someone else. I contact a few others that I know have judged before at that point, and at that point, only two were available to even offer help. I'm now down to 3, maybe 4 judges. Three would be good enough for me (worked for B2 just fine) and if the fourth came through then that would be grand.
I get the first judging back, DJP's. And yeah.
Then I got the second judges results back (which I am very thankful for).
The 3rd one still has not sent me the judging, which was the reason for some of the delay.
And the 4th one, who had warned me that they might not be able to finish, wasn't able to.
So that's what's up with Bracket 1. To correct the lack of multiple judging, after the first semi-final acceptance voting round (where the top 50% based on voting only move on), there will be another point based voting round before the finals. All the scores (PR, judges, first vote round) will be totaled, and the top half of those will move onto the final voting round.
All DJP had to do was fix a couple of his scores for the files he didn't judge fairly and everything would have been grand, but it didn't happen that way as you can see here. Had he contacted me to why I hadn't released the judging, you probably wouldn't be reading any of this, but I guess that's just the way it goes sometimes. He hadn't talked to me about any of this since the conversation we had about his judging.
Any questions?
DJ Potatoe: Regarding The Eleventh Hour wrote:I actually laughed out loud for that one, but because it wasn’t funny AND fun, I didn’t give it any points.
Yep, everything he said is true.
He didn't follow the proper judging formats stated (especially presentation) and I clearly told him that, but he didn't care.
When judges don't follow the expected format that everyone else is being held to, then I see nothing wrong with throwing it out.
So (naturally) I failed to see how my dislike of the song choice in personal comments altered the judging in some negative way, and when I brought this to the attention of Bluess, he had no retort at the ready. Actually, I think that killed most of the conversation.
Hah. As much as everyone tries, everyone has biases, even when they "put them aside". The fact that you were so strongly opinionated and then said it didn't affect your scoring didn't set well with me, but it still wasn't the reason the scores were thrown out.
You didn't follow the guidelines.
My argument was that while I think Bluess is just fine as far as human beings go, but for another tournament of step files, I think a new “leader” should be named. Mayhaps a vote would work? But only if everyone’s opinions are different.
haha, be my guest... and is Mayhaps a word?
P.S. Bluess said he would post my “denied” judge sheet on the boards in case you folks want to read the massive amounts of feedback I tried to produce. If he doesn’t, maybe you can pm him for a copy.
Ah, I love this. The reason I hadn't posted your judging yet, was because I was going to (and will from the way it looks regarding the other judge) include it in a modified judging system for bracket 1.
See I originally had about 5 judges lined up for bracket 1. Some were judges that had judged before, a few (including DJP) were new to judging. I thought it would make a good variety for varied opinions.
As the first week (the week nothing went on, that gave judges time to get started) I was notified that three of the judges would no longer be able to do it. Ok, I've had that happen before - I'll find someone else. I contact a few others that I know have judged before at that point, and at that point, only two were available to even offer help. I'm now down to 3, maybe 4 judges. Three would be good enough for me (worked for B2 just fine) and if the fourth came through then that would be grand.
I get the first judging back, DJP's. And yeah.
Then I got the second judges results back (which I am very thankful for).
The 3rd one still has not sent me the judging, which was the reason for some of the delay.
And the 4th one, who had warned me that they might not be able to finish, wasn't able to.
So that's what's up with Bracket 1. To correct the lack of multiple judging, after the first semi-final acceptance voting round (where the top 50% based on voting only move on), there will be another point based voting round before the finals. All the scores (PR, judges, first vote round) will be totaled, and the top half of those will move onto the final voting round.
All DJP had to do was fix a couple of his scores for the files he didn't judge fairly and everything would have been grand, but it didn't happen that way as you can see here. Had he contacted me to why I hadn't released the judging, you probably wouldn't be reading any of this, but I guess that's just the way it goes sometimes. He hadn't talked to me about any of this since the conversation we had about his judging.
Any questions?
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After reading both DJP and BLueSS's posts, I have to say I agree with BLueSS. If DJP didn't give Eleventh Hour any points just because it wasn't 'fun', then his scores should be thrown out (unless he fixes them).
On another note, DJP, feel free to do some unofficial reviews of bracket 2, as well. I'm sure some of the participants would love to have that much feedback on their files (unless you give them a 0 for not being fun, of course).
Edit: Perhaps next time we should have the competition in the summer? I'd be willing to attempt judging, but I have absolutely no time when I'm in school.
On another note, DJP, feel free to do some unofficial reviews of bracket 2, as well. I'm sure some of the participants would love to have that much feedback on their files (unless you give them a 0 for not being fun, of course).
Edit: Perhaps next time we should have the competition in the summer? I'd be willing to attempt judging, but I have absolutely no time when I'm in school.
Last edited by alphabet55 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ninevolt wrote:You honestly thought Eleventh Hour was a joke song?
Yep, something like that. And apparently, so was Yamato Nadeshiko (Maxxx400 Infinity Style).
That's the link to his judging in case anyone's interested. He is judge 1.
Last edited by BLueSS on Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear on a few things I had mentioned, but that's ok, as it tends to happen sometimes. I will (of course) be happy to clear a few things up.
You are very right about one very important thing here Bluess. You said that I didn't follow the proper judging format for the "Eleventh Hour" entry, thus disqualifying it from being used. Well, I didn't so much "not care" as I stuck to your original rules and guidelines. You said that any files that didn't obey the rules would be disqualified from start up. This is a fair assumption of what you said in your opening posts, right? Well, since the file is too difficult to be considered a DDR song (at least in my opinion) then technically it would have been booted from the get go, thus making any judgments on it null and void to begin with. My score on it was based on the rules regarding "no un-DDR" entries. If I mistook any of this information, then please alert me to my errors. I never claim to be "always right", but I do back up by efforts and opinions regarding this situation as I believe them to be correct.
The long and short of that particular conversation dealt with me giving the file no points because I felt it was truly horrible as a serious entry. I explained why I felt that way, but hey, if it's thrown out, so be it. If you (the reader) can pass that file on your feet on heavy, then I will admit my "wrong doings." I have already told Bluess the same thing in a personal conversation.
Next you have called me "opinionated" which I will now address. Of course I'm opinionated! I'm a judge in an online contest. What did you expect? And I assume you're telling me that I shouldn't have been opinionated when judging said files? Please, tell me if I'm wrong in assuming that this is what I was "hired" to do. I just wanted to help out from the beginning because I like being involved with a community I feel so close to. I will in fact take your assessment of myself as opinionated and will thank you.
Thanks.
Also, I would be happy to run a tournament of simfiles. I have a system for grading/judging already loosely plotted out in my head. I'll shoot it down on paper soon and work out the kinks. And for the record, "mayhaps" was a swell terminology used in the 1950's. Gee willickers!
I just love old school terminology, and anyone who knows me personally will verify my regular use of such vocabulary words as Groovy, Huzzah, and Golly. I just find it fun to say, so don't get all smarmy on me, Captain Grammer.
And to cover the last point you made, (and this one may be my fault) I know that you haven't posted the sheet yet, and I didn't think you would until the tournament was over. I wasn't faulting you for not doing it yet, but I figured if you never got around to it, then people could probably get it from you via a pm. I wasn't suggesting that you had blatantly not posted it in the hopes of "defending your honor" or something silly, but like I mentioned, I may not have made that clear, so I'll take responsibility on that one.
I still think that I judged fairly and accurately according to the rules you had publicly posted. I just wanted people to know how I felt and that I had made an effort to contribute to the group, be it succesful or not. I would definitly had posted this whether or not I had spoken to you previously, so please don't feel like I'm avoiding you or anything.
Much love to all, including Bluess.
-DJ Potatoe
You are very right about one very important thing here Bluess. You said that I didn't follow the proper judging format for the "Eleventh Hour" entry, thus disqualifying it from being used. Well, I didn't so much "not care" as I stuck to your original rules and guidelines. You said that any files that didn't obey the rules would be disqualified from start up. This is a fair assumption of what you said in your opening posts, right? Well, since the file is too difficult to be considered a DDR song (at least in my opinion) then technically it would have been booted from the get go, thus making any judgments on it null and void to begin with. My score on it was based on the rules regarding "no un-DDR" entries. If I mistook any of this information, then please alert me to my errors. I never claim to be "always right", but I do back up by efforts and opinions regarding this situation as I believe them to be correct.
The long and short of that particular conversation dealt with me giving the file no points because I felt it was truly horrible as a serious entry. I explained why I felt that way, but hey, if it's thrown out, so be it. If you (the reader) can pass that file on your feet on heavy, then I will admit my "wrong doings." I have already told Bluess the same thing in a personal conversation.
Next you have called me "opinionated" which I will now address. Of course I'm opinionated! I'm a judge in an online contest. What did you expect? And I assume you're telling me that I shouldn't have been opinionated when judging said files? Please, tell me if I'm wrong in assuming that this is what I was "hired" to do. I just wanted to help out from the beginning because I like being involved with a community I feel so close to. I will in fact take your assessment of myself as opinionated and will thank you.
Thanks.
Also, I would be happy to run a tournament of simfiles. I have a system for grading/judging already loosely plotted out in my head. I'll shoot it down on paper soon and work out the kinks. And for the record, "mayhaps" was a swell terminology used in the 1950's. Gee willickers!
I just love old school terminology, and anyone who knows me personally will verify my regular use of such vocabulary words as Groovy, Huzzah, and Golly. I just find it fun to say, so don't get all smarmy on me, Captain Grammer.
And to cover the last point you made, (and this one may be my fault) I know that you haven't posted the sheet yet, and I didn't think you would until the tournament was over. I wasn't faulting you for not doing it yet, but I figured if you never got around to it, then people could probably get it from you via a pm. I wasn't suggesting that you had blatantly not posted it in the hopes of "defending your honor" or something silly, but like I mentioned, I may not have made that clear, so I'll take responsibility on that one.
I still think that I judged fairly and accurately according to the rules you had publicly posted. I just wanted people to know how I felt and that I had made an effort to contribute to the group, be it succesful or not. I would definitly had posted this whether or not I had spoken to you previously, so please don't feel like I'm avoiding you or anything.
Much love to all, including Bluess.
-DJ Potatoe
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In my opinion, DJP, it is not your job to disqualify files. I think if Eleventh Hour or Yamato Nadeshiko were bad enough to be DQ'd, then BLueSS would have booted them already.
That's just my opinion, though, and it's not like I have any experience at all in running simfile tournaments.
That's just my opinion, though, and it's not like I have any experience at all in running simfile tournaments.
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DJ Potatoe wrote:Well, since the file is too difficult to be considered a DDR song (at least in my opinion) then technically it would have been booted from the get go, thus making any judgments on it null and void to begin with. My score on it was based on the rules regarding "no un-DDR" entries.
Public opinion poll: How does Eleventh Hour compare difficulty wise to the other BOSS songs, including the ones in Supernova?
If you (the reader) can pass that file on your feet on heavy, then I will admit my "wrong doings." I have already told Bluess the same thing in a personal conversation.
Any takers? I don't pass anything above a 9 foot.
Next you have called me "opinionated" which I will now address. Of course I'm opinionated!
biased /= opinionated. I was fine with you having different opinions.
I wasn't suggesting that you had blatantly not posted it in the hopes of "defending your honor" or something silly, but like I mentioned, I may not have made that clear, so I'll take responsibility on that one. I would definitly had posted this whether or not I had spoken to you previously, so please don't feel like I'm avoiding you or anything.
Ok, fair enough I guess.
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BLueSS wrote:Ninevolt wrote:You honestly thought Eleventh Hour was a joke song?
Yep, something like that. And apparently, so was Yamato Nadeshiko (Maxxx400 Infinity Style).
That's the link to his judging in case anyone's interested. He is judge 1.
L
O
L
If Eleventh Hour is a joke song, then every boss song ever made in DDR might as well be a joke song. And Pandemonium, Vertex, Vertex^2 for ITG.
Just because you're not good enough to pass the song doesn't mean it's a joke entry.
Public opinion poll: How does Eleventh Hour compare difficulty wise to the other BOSS songs, including the ones in Supernova?
Eleventh Hour was pretty easy for a "Flashing Ten". Shit like Faxx and Felm are way harder than this. 660 BPM isn't that hard to read.
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Public opinion poll: How does Eleventh Hour compare difficulty wise to the other BOSS songs, including the ones in Supernova?
Given the gimmicks and such, I'm guessing it's harder than any BOSS song (I'm not able to pass FAXX and Felm, though) on DDR. However, it's quite doable if you try it with a C-mod (but that probably doesn't count).
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Listen guys, I'm not here to start any fights. I kept myself clear of all the arguing involved with the rest of the tournament on purpose.
Yes, I thought it was a joke entry, and obviously you do not. Also, ninevolt, I can pass most of the boss songs in DDR, including a AAA on Max 300 (though this was several years ago). I haven't played much recently because of the multiple projects that occupy my time, but I try to get a few rounds in every now and again. Oh, and, Ninevolt, your argument involving the ITG boss songs is the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. Please re-read.
And as far as my opinions go involving ITG, I believe that the whole game is a "joke song" but that's neither here nor there.
If you guys need any clarification regarding anything else, just ask I suppose.
Peace.
-DJ Potatoe
Yes, I thought it was a joke entry, and obviously you do not. Also, ninevolt, I can pass most of the boss songs in DDR, including a AAA on Max 300 (though this was several years ago). I haven't played much recently because of the multiple projects that occupy my time, but I try to get a few rounds in every now and again. Oh, and, Ninevolt, your argument involving the ITG boss songs is the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. Please re-read.
And as far as my opinions go involving ITG, I believe that the whole game is a "joke song" but that's neither here nor there.
If you guys need any clarification regarding anything else, just ask I suppose.
Peace.
-DJ Potatoe
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