Public Review Complaints/Suggestions

[CoreyBlaze]

All of us DDR purists here are just ticked off about stuff like PARANOiA (Hades), which is obviously inspired by ITG.

There's nothing in ITG like Paranoia Hades (challenge, I assume that's what you're talking about). At the highest difficulty levels, ITG relies solely on how fast you have to mash on the pad, while DDR relies on carefully-structured crossovering sequences that are non-existant in ITG.

[Super_Ray]

All of us DDR purists here are just ticked off about stuff like PARANOiA (Hades), which is obviously inspired by ITG.

There's nothing in ITG like Paranoia Hades (challenge, I assume that's what you're talking about). At the highest difficulty levels, ITG relies solely on how fast you have to mash on the pad, while DDR relies on carefully-structured crossovering sequences that are non-existant in ITG.

NGO, TMP, Arrabbiata, and a few others don't seem very carefully structured at all (and that becomes even more evident when you play thier light and standard charts, which appear to be "copy, paste, and take out a few arrows" jobs from the heavy charts)

[BLueSS]

Alright, time to start talking again about the actual files in this contest instead of DDR songs.

[0rion]

(Post deleted.)

[creativename]

That last post was too long. I have a headache now.

I thought I was done judging a pack, but now I ain't. Boo-urns

So, if I am following correctly, there are a few designated judges, and everyone's scores mashed together also counts as a judge? Somehow I missed that.

[Zounder]

So, if I am following correctly, there are a few designated judges, and everyone's scores mashed together also counts as a judge? Somehow I missed that.

Correct. Public's scores will be averaged and count as a single judge.

[0rion]

Sorry, heh. I tried to condense it as much as possible, but there were a lot of things to address.

For the record, I'll do my best to stop downgrading for misrated files so long as I don't have to go back and change ALL of my previous reviews. That would take hours, and the results would be much the same.

[BLueSS]

For those of you who may have seen 0rion's post above, and now wonder why it's gone, it's because 0rion and I had a chat over AIM and worked some things out.

As I was trying to explain to him, it wasn't again any of his points about the contest that bugged me, but the way that he was coming across (and how instead, it's better to find out why we do things a certain way instead of just recommending changing them).

These tournaments are supposed to be a fun time where we can show off the latest simfiles that we all have been working on in a friendly atmosphere. The purpose isn't to argue and debate on finding the most detailed way on how to judge every file (although it too often divulges into that).

If it's not fun for people, people are going to stop entering. Why would anyone want to judge if they're only going to be criticized for trying to offer their feedback and suggestions? Why would anyone enter if they never got feedback?

They won't. And in fact, the past two tournaments have had less people due to them not wanting to have to deal with drama while trying to have a good time with other people who enjoy making simfiles. I try very hard to make this as much fun for everyone involved, so when people come in and make it no longer fun, I do something about it.

I do hope that we can actually get back to playing and reviewing the files in all the brackets (not just bracket 1 either).

[cpubasic13]

Someone get to Bracket 3.

All this drama made people play 1 and those that were annoyed did 2 but no love for 3 other than the group review?

Given that we can just review Heavy I may try and do a review AND complete it for one of these brackets.

[AmazingKenchan]

I'll do bracket 3 after I'm done with 2, but I'm doing full detailed reviews so it might be a while.

[BLueSS]

Ok, so this is going to be a bit of a long explanation, so I'm really sorry if anyone gets a little freaked out about this. I was just sooooo confused as to why my simfile received really great scores with 2 of the public reviewers, but the other 2 seemed like they really had no understanding for what I was intending for my file. I'm not really mad or anything, just very confused, so I really do feel like there is a lot to clarify about my simfile.

I-REVOLUTION

Heavy (6/10): The beginning is very similar to actual SySF charts on DDR, and I mean that in a good way. I have to say, though, that the slowdown was VERY disruptive to the song's flow, and should have been edited out. Gallops were questionable, but not terrible. the first half of the song was definitely the more enjoyable part.

Standard (3.5/5): I'd say that this was very correctly rated. This would be a decent chart for a person to learn ghost-stepping on for the first time.

Light (3/5): Also nice. It was a cool tough having the full-stop come AFTER the freeze arrow is held here. Good rhythm all around.

Presentation (3.5/5): Banner and BG looked fine.

Tilt (.5) Readme didn't have much info, but it was a nice thought. As was the (blank) logo.

OVERALL (16.5/25): Fun, but became something of a trainwreck after the full-stop.

So, please explain why one stop in the song hurts a simfile's score by this much. To me, docking a file’s scores on every single step chart and what it seems like what you did in the Presentation score, just because of one stop in the song followed by a slow part which you think is too hard to follow, sounds completely unfair.

Have you ever played Abyss or Insertion? They both have rather long pauses in the music before a hard part of the song to follow, just like my file. After the stop, for Insertion in particular, you CANNOT rely on the music to hit those arrows. Same with my file, however, this time I've even made it easier for the player. There is one constant BPM during the slow part of my file, but in Insertion, the BPM skips from place to place, forcing the player to step on some seemingly strangely placed arrows. This is not ITG. Every single arrow does not have to follow a dignified note in the song. I really have to stress this about my file. However, even this doesn’t make sense because the freeze arrows placed after the stop are all quarter notes, followed by 8th notes, one of these being a freeze in Standard, which follow a more dignified beat in the song. All you have to do is tap your feet or bop your head or whatever you want to the previous beat of the song, and you’ll get all perfects for the slower part of the song, that is if one of the reasons you don’t like the stop is because it messes up you the “flow” of the file. Flow is just a terrible word to use these days on account of steps, because double stepping is considered to “ruin your flow” when it was used all the time from the first mix of DDR to even SuperNOVA, when double stepping got so unpopular that the step makers had to reduce the amount of them just to please their players. You didn’t really mention the word “flow”, but the stop you’re talking about really seems like it ruins the flow followed before for the rest of the steps in the song. Once in a while, you have to eyeball steps without being 100% sure about the beat of the song. Just because the part of the song you’re docking huge points for is just too quiet for you to distinguish the music, it really isn’t that hard to just hit the arrow when it comes up to the judgment panel. I mean, you really didn’t explain why the steps were so bad, but you kept mentioning the song, even though the song should not count as negative points toward the field of grading called “steps”.

You mention that the first part of the song was better than the last, but are you sure this isn’t just a result of you’re thinking process while playing the song? You were probably thinking the first part of the song, “Oh, everything is going all right with the song. No surprise BPM changes or stops, just nice clean steps that are similar to other SySF. DDR step charts.” But then at the stop and beyond, this is what I’m implying about what you were thinking, “What’s this? A stop? Why are my speakers playing such quiet music after this stop? This is not how I predicted this song to go.” And then you carried that negative mood about the stop in the song throughout the rest of the simfile. Now, please keep in mind, because of you’re review, this is what I am implying you thought about the latter half of the steps. I don’t mean this is what you really meant, but you really do sound like the stop ruined everything about the file.

What was wrong with the presentation? I really just want an explanation of this, because it really doesn’t sound right if you’re docking points off for the stop in the song for the presentation score when you already gave negative feedback about the stop relative to the steps. If it’s because you’re just grading the graphics and how they look, then I’m perfectly ok with that. I’m also very confused about the score you gave for Light. You made it seem like nothing was wrong with it, but then still docked points for it. An explanation is all I want about these.

i-revolution - SySF. [7/10]
I really was sold on this song, up until the slow down. It seemed out of place. And it didn’t sound like some of the freeze arrows started on that honking sound or whatever it was. Is that what you wanted? I thought the song was cool and steps fit the pattern, and I could see it being on a ddr machine. I would have liked to see a harder chart, but that’s me and has no bearing on the chart you made.

Same exact thing is unclear here. It sounds like all you didn’t like was the stop followed by the slow BPM part of the song, but then you dock a rather large amount of points just because of that. You say the song was great until the slow down. If they were really that great, then why is there a 3 point deduction in just that stop and section with half the BPM? You say it seemed out of place, but how could it? The song itself stops playing music, so how could adding a stop to the steps feel strange?

Practically all I said above responding to 0rion’s grading is what I want clarified in your grading, because you both were unclear about the stop in the song. This explanation is for both of the grades I was unclear about, so reading both replies will give you a better explanation about my file.


Please don’t think this as me getting down on you guys for you publicly reviewing the files you did. I thought you both put a lot of time and work into your reviews, so I really hate it for me to have to do this. I really do respect both of your reviews, but when things get this unclear, there’s nothing else for me to do but explain, even if the explanation may seem like a lot to read.

[creativename]

Reply to above

Well, I did mention that the timing on the freezes sounded off. Also, I mentioned at the beginning of my post that I factored in how I liked the steps vs the other songs in the bracket.

Personally, I think having a speed change or pause vs not is a major decision, but that's not where all 3 points went.

After reading and writing public reviews, I think it's pretty neat-o. Of course people's opinions will differ.

[DjJRun]

After the stop, for Insertion in particular, you CANNOT rely on the music to hit those arrows. Same with my file, however, this time I've even made it easier for the player. There is one constant BPM during the slow part of my file, but in Insertion, the BPM skips from place to place, forcing the player to step on some seemingly strangely placed arrows. This is not ITG. Every single arrow does not have to follow a dignified note in the song.

I might be off my rocker, but uhhh... I always assumed that each note in any dance chart (DDR/ITG/whatever) should correspond to at least -something- going on in the song. To me, personally, I always considered arrows thrown in somewhere in a song for seemingly no reason to be a mortal sin. That's why I always thought parts of songs like that(like that portion of Insertion) were poorly done because it seemed to be careless.

So based on what was said, am I to assume that arrows in a song that go to nothing are ok as long as you're keeping the same beat/BPM throughout the song? 'Cuz that's what it sounds like is being said, and if that's the case, I strongly disagree.

[Titiln]

are readmes that important to give or take points for? they don't really contribute a lot to the stepfile

[0rion]

With regard to i-revolution's author, this is just one person's opinion. I personally thought the long pause was disruptive to the flow of the song, but that doesn't mean that it's "right" or "wrong." Just the same, I had to rate the chart based on my own opinions, not anyone else's. The three songs that won my votes I felt were a better product overall.

Does that mean everyone will feel that way? Certainly not. It doesn't mean that my opinion is "right" or "wrong," either. It's just the impression I got. If your chart is really good quality and my judgment was off, that should be reflected in the other public reviews. It wasn't MY cup of tea, and I had to write it as such, but it wasn't bad by any means.

As far as DDR precedents go, I've said before that just because DDR does something doesn't make it right. Insertion is actually one of my least favorite charts.

There was also nothing wrong with the presentation. However, as such I gave it a "nothing is wrong with it" score. If you'll notice, every banner/BG combination that wasn't completely terrible got this score. This is because graphics aren't a priority for me. As someone said earlier in this topic, the best song stepper isn't necessarily the best artist.

However, Presentation IS a valid part of the scoring process, so that's why I didn't throw the score out entirely. In the future, I will try to add a little more variety to my presentation scores, but if it makes you feel any better, I'm not a great judge of that anyway, and admit to such. I'll take your advice, though, and be more firm with regards to visuals.

I appreciate your criticism, and hope that I didn't offend you too much. If I was too strict on steps and not strict enough on graphics, I do apologize, and will keep an eye out for that in the future.