Bracket 2 - Discussion

[hellrazor]

I was hoping your bracket 2 judging wasn't going to be more "point off for every double step" but it was just more of it, and it's to be honest a horrible way of judging. Your judging before that was even worse, of marking songs off simple because you didn't like the music.

You are extremely biased, and it's as simple as that. Your reviews are not fair, and will not be considered for this tournament.

I will not be reversing this decision, and if you want to stick around you still can, as long as you're not going to try to defend your insane justification for making the tournament unfair.

This is the last BEST-mix, and the last DDR simfile tournament I'll be doing, ever. This series is going to go out with a fair competition, and not an extreme "anti-double step" bias.

---------------

Bracket 1 will be rescored without hellrazor's reviews.
All of the files that originally moved on will still move on.
Any files that would have moved on will ALSO move on.
There will still be a wildcard.:)

Oh.

That wasn't my intent at all, I'm sorry. I am indeed biased towards double-stepping and certain songs, I'm big on paddable steps and unique songs. What I meant about being unbiased was towards the simfile author, I judged the steps without considering the music or my opinions (many reviewers deduct points because they felt the crossovers were unnecessary, or the steps were too karaoke, or too intense, things that are not quantifiable and heavily opinionated, I simply judged on play-ability and note accuracy).

I understand your decision BlueSS, I wasn't judging files in order to skew anything here, there are absolutely no backdoor shenanigans going on here, I was only trying to be a fair judge.

[Silverhawke]

I am indeed biased towards double-stepping and certain songs, I'm big on paddable steps and unique songs.

hey

hey

did you know

you can double step on pad?

[Greg]

I've been wondering... Can someone tell me if there's ANY reason why to use the first pattern instead of the second one?

You achieve EXACTLY the same effect. The only difference is that the second pattern can be played in only one way, without confusing the player, while at the first pattern, after the third arrow, once the players legs are crossed, it's like the game was saying: "Now go ahead, take a guess! Double-step or spin? :D" and if the player doesn't do a double-step it's like "HAH! GOT YOU! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DO A DOUBLE-STEP! Oh well, now you're standing back to the screen, you'll just miss few notes XD WASN'T THAT SOOO MUCH FUN?! XD"

[BLueSS]

I've been wondering... Can someone tell me if there's ANY reason why to use the first pattern instead of the second one?

If the steps before the part in the picture cause the player to have their left foot on the down arrow, and their right foot on the left arrow (previous spins/twist/turns), then adding in the freeze arrow is a great way to ensure they get "untwisted" easily. If the player doesn't see the freeze, they may try to twist to start the part in the picture with their left foot, which could defeat the purpose (and the fun) of the spin.

/2cents

[Greg]

I've been wondering... Can someone tell me if there's ANY reason why to use the first pattern instead of the second one?

If the steps before the part in the picture cause the player to have their left foot on the down arrow, and their right foot on the left arrow (previous spins/twist/turns), then adding in the freeze arrow is a great way to ensure they get "untwisted" easily. If the player doesn't see the freeze, they may try to twist to start the part in the picture with their left foot, which could defeat the purpose (and the fun) of the spin.

/2cents

Okay, I forgot to add something like "assuming that you start with the left foot" :P It's not from any of the SIMfiles, I just wanted to show an example of a double-step :)

[Oni-91]

Also the next two arrows could be down, then left. Well, down and then pretty much anything.

You could ALMOST get away with LDRURLUR.

[Greg]

I see we're completely missing with the point here... xD I'm not asking for how to correctly finish the spin in the first picture.

I've heard many people here saying that double-stepping isn't bad. My theory is that there's nothing bad with it as long as it's CLEAR for the player that he is supposed to do a double-step which can be achieved ONLY with using a simple hold arrow.
That's what holds are intended for, right? To keep one of the player's feet in one place for a while so they have to use the other foot multiple times in a row. And that's EXACTLY what double-stepping is.

[Zounder]

Greg, I agree that at lower BPMs, there's no technical difference. Each pattern can be chosen to be stepped in different ways, and they both accomplish the same purpose.

However, at mid-high BPMs, using a hold to force a double step can disrupt the way one moves on a pad. For example, take a pattern similar to that in Teknopathetic. (I know somebody showed you can spin those, but let's pretend the pattern is only UL DR with a quarter note gap in the middle. that shows up sometimes in simfiles at higher BPMs.) if I'm stepping that on pad, I'm using my right foot, then my left foot, then I'm mini-hopping to place myself on the DR arrows, but I'm landing on my left foot first, then my right. Hopefully that made sense! So If there was a hold on the up arrow to artificially force my double step, I would not have been able to mini-hop, forcing my movements to be completely different than I would have liked. is it a big deal? Not really. But I can see the double step coming, so I see no reason for a hold just for the sake of forcing a double step. if you want the hold there simply for wanting a hold, then fine.

The other thing is that I really would rather not use a hold solely for the purpose of forcing the player to double step. I'd rather use it because it fits the song. I don't want to speak for the rest of the community, but 99% of freezes I see are there to fit the music, not there to force a double step.

The thing is, though, I think your problem comes with the inability to recognize double steps without holds telling you they are coming. I can certainly see this being an issue if you can't recognize them. I don't know what to tell you about that, though, unfortunately. I've been in the community since 2004 and this contest is the first time I've heard the comment that people can't tell double steps form spins. If you look at the upcoming arrows, unless the pattern is super-complicated, you should be able to tell what's coming. (Unless you are at a crazy-high BPM, but in that case spinning is probably very awkward and you're probably better off double stepping everything anyway.)

Anyway, that's my two cents. (It should also be noted that I play on 1x speed, so maybe it's easier for me to read upcoming arrows.)

[Greg]

take a pattern similar to that in Teknopathetic. (I know somebody showed you can spin those, but let's pretend the pattern is only UL DR with a quarter note gap in the middle. that shows up sometimes in simfiles at higher BPMs.) if I'm stepping that on pad, I'm using my right foot, then my left foot, then I'm mini-hopping to place myself on the DR arrows, but I'm landing on my left foot first, then my right. Hopefully that made sense! So If there was a hold on the up arrow to artificially force my double step, I would not have been able to mini-hop, forcing my movements to be completely different than I would have liked. is it a big deal? Not really. But I can see the double step coming, so I see no reason for a hold just for the sake of forcing a double step. if you want the hold there simply for wanting a hold, then fine.

Oh, I see :D So there actually IS a pattern that won't be the same :P If I were to argue, I'd say that I'd put mines between them and I think that would make the player do that mini-hop :P But it's a DDR chart, so using mines probably wouldn't work here.

I don't really agree with you about having the ability to read double-steps. IMO the only thing that player needs to know is that they need to use their feet in order ABAB etc. and the only things to change that order would be holds, jumps, hands or mines.
But well, glad to see there's at least one reason to use double-steps without holds :)



Have you guys noticed there's a talk about double-steps during a SIMmaking contest and there's NO DRAMA about it? :O XD

[Zounder]

Have you guys noticed there's a talk about double-steps during a SIMmaking contest and there's NO DRAMA about it? :O XD

:D

IMO the only thing that player needs to know is that they need to use their feet in order ABAB etc. and the only things to change that order would be holds, jumps, hands or mines.
But well, glad to see there's at least one reason to use double-steps without holds :)

(I assume you meant to add repeated notes like LL, RR, etc. to that list of exceptions. :P)

The only statement I have in response to this is that about 80% of DDR songs have double steps, and we -are- trying to emulate DDR, after all. (ITG might be a different story.) I don't know of many people that play DDR that expect to alternate feet every step. I mean, it's one thing to pull off a EOTC 8th note double step mess, it's another to throw in the occasional 4th note double step to add some variety to your step patterns.

But to each his own, I suppose.

[hellrazor]

I see we're completely missing with the point here... xD I'm not asking for how to correctly finish the spin in the first picture.

I've heard many people here saying that double-stepping isn't bad. My theory is that there's nothing bad with it as long as it's CLEAR for the player that he is supposed to do a double-step which can be achieved ONLY with using a simple hold arrow.
That's what holds are intended for, right? To keep one of the player's feet in one place for a while so they have to use the other foot multiple times in a row. And that's EXACTLY what double-stepping is.

+10
I never complained if there was a freeze that caused double-stepping because it's obvious and that's what a freeze is for, I only disliked when the steps caused back to screen turns and missed steps from that.

From what I gathered the reason people may like double-steps is because you can choose which foot to use and not be forced on how to play the chart (because who cares about choreography when making a chart right?). However I haven't seen any complaints about charts that lack double-stepping so that doesn't really fly, plus players whom ignore choreography will miss out on intentional spins and other fun turns, but clearly the mob rules on this subject and discounting points from double stepping will get you banned from judging without mercy or warning.

[jammitch!]

That's a pretty strawman-heavy post there.

I don't think it's that people like double-steps per se. I don't think anyone's clamoring for a new End of the Century Heavy, and I've never heard anyone use the argument you posit in favor of them. In fact, the argument doesn't even make sense, as a double-step by definition forces you to use the same foot, the same way a step in flow forces you to use the other foot, so there's still no "choice".

I think it's more that:

• When used judiciously, they can add variety to a chart.
• One or two double-steps are not greivous errors that substantially detract from the holistic value of a chart, to the tune of a point each.

There's a lot of caveats to this. It depends a lot on speed, current position, and the like. And the vast majority of simfile double-steps are in fact flaws. But double-steps are not inherently evil, and should not be an automatic deduction (at least not such a highly weighted one), any more than not using freezes.

One thing I will say is that the vast majority of spins are not fun to me, because they require memorization above and beyond a single double step, as well as a certain degree of spatial visualization, and the old dizziness factor. The only spins I ever write are Frozen Ray ones, because they're slow enough to handle.

As for mob rules, when it was pointed out to me that my judging didn't meet the standard, I changed it to match. I'm not sure if you had an opportunity to adjust, but if you did, you might have been able to change it to something like -1 point for a single double-step, -2 for a handful, and -3 for too many and get away with it. It's the idea that you'd give HVAM an automatic 2/10 for intentional, valid design choices that got your reviews pulled.

[hellrazor]

Yeah I had to change my judging when I was told I couldn't deduct points because I didn't like a song in the presentation field and I did that. For double-stepping I had no such warning not only that even my "Approval Votes" for the ITG brackets were removed and they had nothing to do with double-stepping...

But only -3 for a plagued file is low that means the lowest score I would have given out would have been 7/10 whereas others deducted much more points for undefined reasons most likely because they didn't like the song or something else not clearly stated, I was at least very methodical and blunt and provided no favoritism other than in the TILT field. HVAM has 2 at most double-steps and if you play it correctly 0, it would have received a 10/10 by me not a 2/10, I'm actually quite capable at performing spins and turns etc due to all my years of not double-stepping by nature and I had 0 people complain that I double-stepped where there was an intended turn or spin.

But there still is no reason to choreograph the double-step by using a freeze arrow to make it intentional rather than requiring recognizing so many arrows ahead that you won't be spinning back around any time soon, as for spins if your natural movement was to go with the spin you only need 1 arrow at a time to recognize them, but then you'd understand why I hate obscure double-stepping and ambiguous steps (Up arrow after a L/R jump or Right arrow after a U/D jump which foot do you use?). But as someone pointed out that means the arrows force you how to play (meant in a bad way) which is why I use the choreography comment because YES the arrows force my every step and I don't understand what's wrong with that, in fact IMHO that should be very important to a step-artist. So if someone can deduct points because they faced in one direction for to long, I felt able to deduct points if the simfile artist doesn't understand how to properly choreograph their step charts for strict pad play. I understand both of those are opinions and obviously mine was unfavorable whereas other opinions were favorable certainly they are all valid.

I'll probably be banned now because I was warned to not try and defend my stance for some reason, so FYI enjoy the competition I really liked many of the files from BM5!!

[Excel]

I like what jammitch! said aboot doublesteps.

But only -3 for a plagued file is low that means the lowest score I would have given out would have been 7/10 whereas others deducted much more points for undefined reasons most likely because they didn't like the song or something else not clearly stated, I was at least very methodical and blunt and provided no favoritism other than in the TILT field. HVAM has 2 at most double-steps and if you play it correctly 0, it would have received a 10/10 by me not a 2/10, I'm actually quite capable at performing spins and turns etc due to all my years of not double-stepping by nature and I had 0 people complain that I double-stepped where there was an intended turn or spin.

Take what jammitch! said with caveats as well. He was just suggesting a different grading system at that moment. You don't necessarily need to adapt to it fully (or you don't even need to adapt to it at all) and there are always going to be exceptions, like in a case of where there's a double step every 2nd note. Now clearly that sounds pretty bad.

So if someone can deduct points because they faced in one direction for to long, I felt able to deduct points if the simfile artist doesn't understand how to properly choreograph their step charts for strict pad play.

As much as it could be awesome for judging to be objective, sometimes we need to take it in as a holistic kind of manner. Let's take a random stupid hypothetical example. Let's say a chart has six double steps. That doesn't sound good by itself. But then we probably need to ask ourselves, why the crap were those six double steps in? Do they seem random? Do they seem like they go along with a certain melody? Is it for instrumental purpose? Do they ruin the general playability of the stepchart? Were these double steps really sticking out/really really crappy? Other various random questions?
Consider the other steps as well. Were they good? Were they fun/challenging/whatever? How do those steps compare with the inclusion of the double steps?
Overall, did you enjoy the chart even with the double steps? Do you think they can apply to DDR-style fun or ITG-style fun or whatever it is?

The same applies with anything really, crossovers, freezes, ambiguous steps, whatever. You can have some really crappy crossovers. You can even have some really crappy straightforward streams that have you facing the screen at all times, but force you to go 219 bpm 32nds all over the pad.

I understand both of those are opinions and obviously mine was unfavorable whereas other opinions were favorable certainly they are all valid.

I'll probably be banned now because I was warned to not try and defend my stance for some reason, so FYI enjoy the competition I really liked many of the files from BM5!!

I think this might have turned into the direction of talking about judging, but we can still have healthy discussion about double stepping and the various various context behind them.

If you have problems with BlueSS's decision, you should probably talk to him through the private message system or something and talk with him one-on-one. I can definitely see your frustration given the sudden decision you saw, in which case you might be thinking people are trying to attack you for whatever reason, when they aren't trying to.
These comments seem kinda passive-aggressive, and passive-aggressiveness isn't necessarily good. If they aren't, sorry for the misinterpretation though.

tl;dr: words, exceptions, caveats, double stepping isn't necessarily evil, only evil in some cases

try not to doublestep randomly in ITG
sorry i think bad and i try to be not stupid

[hellrazor]

I like what jammitch! said aboot doublesteps.

But only -3 for a plagued file is low that means the lowest score I would have given out would have been 7/10 whereas others deducted much more points for undefined reasons most likely because they didn't like the song or something else not clearly stated, I was at least very methodical and blunt and provided no favoritism other than in the TILT field. HVAM has 2 at most double-steps and if you play it correctly 0, it would have received a 10/10 by me not a 2/10, I'm actually quite capable at performing spins and turns etc due to all my years of not double-stepping by nature and I had 0 people complain that I double-stepped where there was an intended turn or spin.

Take what jammitch! said with caveats as well. He was just suggesting a different grading system at that moment. You don't necessarily need to adapt to it fully (or you don't even need to adapt to it at all) and there are always going to be exceptions, like in a case of where there's a double step every 2nd note. Now clearly that sounds pretty bad.

So if someone can deduct points because they faced in one direction for to long, I felt able to deduct points if the simfile artist doesn't understand how to properly choreograph their step charts for strict pad play.

As much as it could be awesome for judging to be objective, sometimes we need to take it in as a holistic kind of manner. Let's take a random stupid hypothetical example. Let's say a chart has six double steps. That doesn't sound good by itself. But then we probably need to ask ourselves, why the crap were those six double steps in? Do they seem random? Do they seem like they go along with a certain melody? Is it for instrumental purpose? Do they ruin the general playability of the stepchart? Were these double steps really sticking out/really really crappy? Other various random questions?
Consider the other steps as well. Were they good? Were they fun/challenging/whatever? How do those steps compare with the inclusion of the double steps?
Overall, did you enjoy the chart even with the double steps? Do you think they can apply to DDR-style fun or ITG-style fun or whatever it is?

The same applies with anything really, crossovers, freezes, ambiguous steps, whatever. You can have some really crappy crossovers. You can even have some really crappy straightforward streams that have you facing the screen at all times, but force you to go 219 bpm 32nds all over the pad.

I understand both of those are opinions and obviously mine was unfavorable whereas other opinions were favorable certainly they are all valid.

I'll probably be banned now because I was warned to not try and defend my stance for some reason, so FYI enjoy the competition I really liked many of the files from BM5!!

I think this might have turned into the direction of talking about judging, but we can still have healthy discussion about double stepping and the various various context behind them.

If you have problems with BlueSS's decision, you should probably talk to him through the private message system or something and talk with him one-on-one. I can definitely see your frustration given the sudden decision you saw, in which case you might be thinking people are trying to attack you for whatever reason, when they aren't trying to.
These comments seem kinda passive-aggressive, and passive-aggressiveness isn't necessarily good. If they aren't, sorry for the misinterpretation though.

What good is the internet without misinterpretation?
You have a 100% valid point and I understand it completely, in hindsight I should have been less objective in judging and I had planned on the next rounds doing just that, for the first round for the sake of time constraints I did what I did and I felt like one judge won't sway the whole competition in the first round. I know a few files didn't deserve the score I gave them and many deserved lower scores, I simply didn't want to get into the details in the first round (blame it on the rain).
I would have preferred a PM explaining exactly what happened, all I knew was two hours before the judging deadline there were all these posts about how horrible my decisions were and that all of my scores were invalid. I don't know who I offended personally or anything else that happened behind the scenes. I also had explained my judgement when I first began going through the files 3 weeks before all of my results were banned and there was no warning that whole time...
But seriously, not passive aggressive the whole point is to enjoy dance game, enjoy songs, enjoy sweating, and enjoy I do. Feel free to share my files, associate any of my previous entries in BM or remove them if you like, I appreciated being part of these contests from day 1 until now my only regret is that I caused simfile authors to get upset and that they felt like they couldn't address me personally (unless BlueSS really did just come out of the blue and decide that on his own, I really am clueless as to what transpired). Oh and I also regret that "All I Do Is Win" didn't win BM4, I still love that file.