BRACKET 2 RELEASED: Discussion

[Greg]

Well, I wouldn't like playing a chart with patterns like these, I don't find them fun or interesting.
And just like Lisek said, I can subtract points for double-steps in my reviews and you can add points for them in yours. Depends on what you like.

[Xythar]

In which case I will return to my previous question:

I mean, think about it this way. Say I decide that I don't like jumps, perhaps I just don't find jumping fun or something. I then decide to dock points in my official review every time a file uses jumps, regardless of whether they are used appropriately or not. Sound fair to you?

Also, the jammitch! quote was referring to his ratings being harsh overall. jammitch still rates better files above worse files quite accurately, which won't happen if you deduct points for valid DDR step patterns.

[Greg]

Go ahead then. There're no rules on how are we supposed to judge the simfiles (and that's rather stupid that everyone can write a review).

[Xythar]

Well, I think the implicit expectation was that DDR files would be judged according to DDR standards and ITG files according to ITG standards. That is usually how it is in these competitions.

I haven't written any reviews because I don't have a pad right now and I don't feel I would be able to judge them fairly on keyboard/autoplay because although I can understand basic positioning when watching the arrows on screen there are a whole lot of nuances (stuff like facing left/right too often, overreliance on figure 8s, moving forward/back and just generally well-made and natural feeling step placement) that are very difficult to grasp without padding the file for one's self.

[Miki]

Another thing is that the players themselves can choose to double-step. For a RDL pattern, someone can choose to hit R with the right foot, then hit DL with their left. Players can choose not to do any crossovers even if the chart presents the opportunity.

My entry is made to have "perfect flow" and (even assumes that players start with their right foot), but I have largely ignored this issue for my reviews unless the placement of the arrows are super awkward or seem just too random without anything real thought put into them. Taking into account all these factors (player's own playstyle, music, variety of patterns), it just seems like a trivial thing to agonize over.

[jammitch!]

OK, so let's see here:

* This is definitely a discussion, not a flame war, and if it keeps interest in the competition up, I'm all for it Last year we had a real flame war due to simfile dogma , and I'm still more than a little pissed about that.
* Yes, the intent of my quote was to say that my ratings were numerically low in absolute terms - the best I gave last round was a 23 / 30 - but as long as I was consistent in what I gave a 23 to, it didn't matter if other people would have given that file at 29 or 30.
* That said, reviewing stepfiles is subjective, no matter what some people want to believe, and personal biases are always going to creep in. The trick is to try to be somewhat objective. For example, I'm trying to avoid docking points for short freezes even though I find them absurdly useless grade inflators.
* In Back 2 Back, the only double steps that I can recall are the spins on Standard and Challenge. Admittedly, it's unlikely people are going to try to spin 8th notes at 150 BPM, but it's also unlikely that someone's going to try to do crossovers there. And in that case, what I was doing was metastepping... the spins line up with the part of the sample that goes "spinning on the turntable".
* This segues well into my next thought. Writing stepcharts - especially four-panel singles - is a very limited art form. I mean, there's only so much you can do with four arrows, especially when most songs have such similar rhythms, right? To me, the challenge - and the fun - of stepcharting is to come up with something creative within the very limited framework.

Probably my favorite example of this is Grip, which is in DDR OSC 4 (?) and StepMix 1. The song has numerous pauses. During those pauses, I jacked the BPM through the roof (40x) so the player couldn't see what's coming when the song resumes, but give them a brief pause when it does. The first time, it totally catches them off guard and they'll probably miss. The second, they'll recognize the pause, and they'll know there's going to be something coming, but they don't know what. Turns out it's the exact same step(s). The third and fourth times, it goes down exactly the same way, and by this point I've got the player in a Pavlovian reaction. The song pauses a fifth time, but this time it doesn't actually resume - it's the end. And instead of steps, this time there's mines. Oops I'm especially proud of that bit of devilishness.
* Xythar, 624 68486 is definitely a pattern that could be hit by alternating feet, Afronova-style, so I'm not sure it's the best example of your point. But if you put the player in that situation, the best thing to do is to leave them an out - if you wanted them to double-step and they cross in, at least let them double-step out without a full spin.
* I review a lot of the harder files on keyboard myself, but I try to make a point to play with indices when I do. I could play them on pad at a slower speed, but it goes a lot quicker this way, and I can do it at my main computer instead of the Myth box. I still try to pad what I can.

Speaking of padding what I can, I got through most of them today, which means I'll probably start detailed reviews for the relevant brackets tomorrow. From what I remember, 15 Step was probably my favorite DDR file, and I've already stated my favorite ITG one. I don't expect to give out a lot of ratings below 5 this time either; it's pretty tight competition.

[Xythar]

Grip was a classic. I really like it when stepfiles have character, such as that (and I'd take it over a completely safe by-the-numbers file any day, but that's more a personal preference).

Also I'd managed to block last year's drama entirely from my memory until now

Wow I thought there was going to be reviews but instead it's just bitching about double steps. Thanks guys

Technically by posting in that topic without posting a review you're contributing to the problem

[Valex]

Wow I thought there was going to be reviews but instead it's just bitching about double steps. Thanks guys

Technically by posting in that topic without posting a review you're contributing to the problem

Yeah but I contributed a file to that bracket so I can't review it. What now

[Juub005]

May I just say that Krazy Krokodile heavy was amazing.

I also played some other heavy charts for the first time. I've been moving and getting ready for my first semester of grad school so I'm extremely busy, but there's some great stuff here. I will get to specifics later

[Xythar]

Hey Juub you need to get on AIM some time so we can catch up. I remember you IM'd me once when I wasn't around (sorry) and I haven't seen you since.

[Hainaut]

May I just say that Krazy Krokodile heavy was amazing.

Haha, thanks a lot!

[Super_Ray]

Junior - Mama Used To Say / Super_Ray

Presentation 4/5
Simplistic, blue, retro-feel to the graphics. I like the 3D effect to the title. Just docked off a mark for not being as stand-out to as the other sims in this bracket.

Standard 9/11
Jeez, this song brings me deja vu for some reason. This chart I felt also resembled to some DDR song back in the day as well. Although, I actually enjoyed that song, which pretty much states that I enjoyed this chart as well. I found this chart more groovier, cooler. More free-like. Yeah, I just enjoyed it thoroughly.

Heavy 7/11
Eh. This simfile actually made me miss S.P.A.M. I actually should not have ever been so harsh on that simfile, because at least that one was amazing. No lie. This one.. This simfile actually reminded me of some early DDR song. I think it was Get Up N' Dance, with all those long streams or maybe that was Think Ya Better D. Huh. By mentioning those files though, that is where this simfile lies in that some sort of category. Midtempo, dancy, yet.. dull

Tilt 1/3
Beh, I'd always have to compare to what your up against, so I can't really give you the full mark.

Total: 21/30

I'm glad this reminded you of early DDR songs like Get Up and Dance. I'm sorry you think it's dull, tho. Get Up And Dance is actually one of my current favorites to play :p
As for S.P.A.M, I'm guessing it may have been better received if not for the stupid bgas. (I wanted to see what sort of reaction they would draw and simultaneously vent frustration at Utada for her newest album)

[JukuGuy]

Junior - Mama Used To Say / Super_Ray

Presentation 4/5
Simplistic, blue, retro-feel to the graphics. I like the 3D effect to the title. Just docked off a mark for not being as stand-out to as the other sims in this bracket.

Standard 9/11
Jeez, this song brings me deja vu for some reason. This chart I felt also resembled to some DDR song back in the day as well. Although, I actually enjoyed that song, which pretty much states that I enjoyed this chart as well. I found this chart more groovier, cooler. More free-like. Yeah, I just enjoyed it thoroughly.

Heavy 7/11
Eh. This simfile actually made me miss S.P.A.M. I actually should not have ever been so harsh on that simfile, because at least that one was amazing. No lie. This one.. This simfile actually reminded me of some early DDR song. I think it was Get Up N' Dance, with all those long streams or maybe that was Think Ya Better D. Huh. By mentioning those files though, that is where this simfile lies in that some sort of category. Midtempo, dancy, yet.. dull

Tilt 1/3
Beh, I'd always have to compare to what your up against, so I can't really give you the full mark.

Total: 21/30

I'm glad this reminded you of early DDR songs like Get Up and Dance. I'm sorry you think it's dull, tho. Get Up And Dance is actually one of my current favorites to play :p
As for S.P.A.M, I'm guessing it may have been better received if not for the stupid bgas. (I wanted to see what sort of reaction they would draw and simultaneously vent frustration at Utada for her newest album)

Hey, I actually enjoyed Utada's (and after all these years I thought it was pronounced You-tah-dah -_______-), single on that album. Haven't heard the album, so I guess I should.. Stay away from it, huh? Plus, those stupid bgas you made were so genius, I think its cause of the fact that when you included those, people would seem to think that file was more of a tosser than a real serious contender. Which, I now thought it was...

And yeah, I was actually looking forward to you stepping that Chipmunk song, instead of the song you chose for this pack, hehe.

[The Period]

These and many other interesting step placements are only possible by thinking outside the box and coming up with something new outside the boundaries of "perfect flow".

Its a sin say that "double stepping is an ALL simmers fail" and that "ALL best simmers never use double-stepping"

Is like saying that God exists or not without a proof.

In every fields of life, when someone uses another approach to doing sth, you would never say that "my approach is better than yours! you sx! All pros do things like me so I'm the best" Or something similar.

You cannot compare 2 different approaches to simming because what the simmer wanted to express with each approach is different in essence.

Is like the nonsense war between if ITG is better than DDR.

Both approaches are different in those games, so those games are differente, are oriented to different dance gamers.

Think outside the box
There are no rules to make art.

[will-i-am]

Think outside the box
There are no rules to make art.

Yes. ^^

btw, don't turn down Uu-tah-dah's album without a deserving listen, Juku! It's definitely a much different style than her previous work, which caused a lot of ruckass amongst hardcore Utada fans at the instinctual impression that Utada had sold her musically enhanced brains and knack for creative tunes to the blinged out, rim spinning attired hip-hop/rap devils in order to cheat her way into a brand new American fanbase full of wanna hopstah white kids, but This Is The One is certainly not an album you should pass up - that is, if you're not one of those hardcore fans.

There are definitely a few keepers, and I stepped one of them myself for the Christmas pack I held at DDREvolved. Apple And Cinnamon is a good One, and of course Come Back To Me is another One, but I really think This One (Crying Like A Child) is The One.

The lyrics are kinda sell-outs themselves, though, but her spin on American music isn't that unbearable, so give those Ones I mentioned a shot if you haven't already.