BRACKET 1 - DISCUSSION

[Zounder]

It would be perfectly reasonable for somebody to dock points for a slow, low key song being 10 feet instead of something more appropriate.

It would also be reasonable to dock points off of a light chart that's 7 feet when the heavy chart is 7-9 feet, because it's completely unnecessary.

Unless you meant something else.

I think this would be more an issue of inappropriate steps that don't make sense with the music in the first case and mis-rating the difficulty level in the second case.

I think what he's saying is that a song that is appropriately stepped and rated shouldn't be docked solely because it's difficult. I might be wrong, but I believe that's what he meant.

Ok, that's why I asked him what he meant in the first place.

[mintessence]

i just rated my steps to what the sm editor said it was

(rounded to the nearest whole number)

[AmazingKenchan]

I've found doing that consistently underrates, definitely so for doubles, and slightly less so for singles. When we make charts as a group, we review them together for a proper rating. SM is a good guideline, but I'd go with your feelings more.

[Sir.Rendr]

i just rated my steps to what the sm editor said it was

(rounded to the nearest whole number)

That probably wasn't the best choice to make.

[Parama]

i just rated my steps to what the sm editor said it was

(rounded to the nearest whole number)

That probably wasn't the best choice to make.

If I were to do that a lot of my keyboard 15s would be 7s. The SM editor is terrible for calculating that @_@

[Zounder]

I like sanchny's method: always round up, and if the SM's rating ends in .5 or higher, add + 1.

So a 6.2 becomes a 7, a 6.6 becomes an 8. EVer since he told me (couple days ago >_>) it seems to be pretty appropriate.

EDIT: As for getting back on topic a bit, I didn't really like this bracket. Of the songs I've played thus far, only i-revolution seemed above average and even that didn't impress me all that much.

[Camacho]

I think what he's saying is that a song that is appropriately stepped and rated shouldn't be docked solely because it's difficult. I might be wrong, but I believe that's what he meant.

Pretty much. Let me try to explain a little better.

Regardless of that previous quote, Max Period is a boss song and you just said yourself NOT a 7-9 footer on heavy, which I -clearly- stated I was referring to. For example, take anormal 9 foot chart like, uh, Exotic Ethnic. Exotic Ethnic does not need a 7 foot light chart (I know it doesnt have one, this is hypothetical). This is just an example to make myself clearer if you didn't understand.

I think it's absurd that you're trying to speak of stepcharts in terms of necessity. Exotic Ethnic didn't need to be stepped at all. It's there because it's there. What would be wrong, exactly, with a 7 foot light chart for it? Except for the fact it would be untraditional, there wouldn't be any inherent problem there.

That's what I was trying to get at with Max. period. Just because it's a Boss Song (which is just a custom by the way, a tradition which isn't technically held in place by any sort of reasoning) doesn't mean the charts have to be so closesly distributed. Maxx Unlimited is an 8 on Standard. I dare you to name me any other 9's on Light, or any song with two 9 charts and two 10 charts, Boss Song or otherwise. The petty traditions you keep appealing to aren't even consistent. That's what I'm getting at. Why I should respect arbitrary limitations as a valid criteria for judgment is question enough, but when they aren't even consistent, that's completely over the line.

Not every slow song needs 4-6 feet steps, again, you're completely misinterpreting what I'm saying, and also again contradicting yourself.

Let's look at what I was responding to:

It would be perfectly reasonable for somebody to dock points for a slow, low key song being 10 feet instead of something more appropriate.

What you said was a universal statement. So the single example I gave was a completely valid refutation of your position. Are you sure you aren't projecting the contradictions in your own arguments onto me? Or confusing the two of us? I'm contradicting you, because you're wrong. There are no contradictions in my position. You pretty blatantly misunderstood the first two things you claimed to be contradictory, and I don't even know how unless you missed like, half the words you quoted.

Let me do it this way.

* I referenced a single chart. Other people reference some sort of body of charts, which they refer to collectively without ever giving examples, while ignoring those examples which contradict their general perception

*I claimed I didn't know why people do this, since the fact a chart is generic has nothing to do with its quality.

*I claimed the charts for Max Period go to the music. I did NOT claim they are good, as this is a matter of opinion. This introduces a distinction no one seems to have adequate reasoning to address; a chart which goes to the music is not inherently good, although it is frequently argued as such, despite the fact harder charts routinely go to the music.

* As a result of the aforementioned, there have to be some sort of additional judgment criteria to explain why a 10 footer with no double steps deserves to be rated lower than a 7 footer with (or without) double steps, since that's a very common practice in competitions like these. Such criteria have never been articulated.



I don't even know that I have the energy to try again, after this, so try to actually understand the stuff I just typed, as opposed to what you've been doing.

[lrxevan]

Why I should respect arbitrary limitations as a valid criteria for judgment is question enough, but when they aren't even consistent, that's completely over the line.

Because last I checked (and I may need to check my sources) this is a DDR competition. That creates a few limitations right off the bat:

- song length
- step style

These among other things.

The DDR rules may be arbitrary when used in DDR (since yes, the developers in question created them specifically for DDR and not for anything else, and not referencing anything else) but they are not arbitrary here because we are using DDR as a reference. We did not in fact create any arbitrary rules.

As far as the argument is concerned:

There is a point to be made here about songs that are slow but difficult ("bag" is an official example among other things).

I think these fall more in line with being gimmicks; the step charts themselves are harder to read than they are to actually perform.

The goal of the step file community has always been to try to create an ordinary DDR file that feels authentic and doesn't go to any extremes except in weird circumstances. "bag" and "MAX" songs are not the kind of files we aim to make. I don't have a real answer as to why that is, but I'd say it's because they tend to have their own (yes, arbitrary) rules that are harder to follow for your average Titiln or Zounder, and this it is harder to make them feel authentic. The potential is there for them to feel fan-made, if you will.

[Sir.Rendr]

I dare you to name me any other 9's on Light, or any song with two 9 charts and two 10 charts, Boss Song or otherwise.

Have you even heard of CHAOS? Fascination ~eternal love mix~? Or should I just say SuperNOVA? They're all horrible examples, but it's DDR.

[Zounder]

Edit: here, you said this first:

0rion wrote:
I think what he's saying is that a song that is appropriately stepped and rated shouldn't be docked solely because it's difficult. I might be wrong, but I believe that's what he meant.


Pretty much. Let me try to explain a little better.

If you agree with 0rion, then we have nothing to argue about here because so do I.

Continue reading if you'd like to venture into mass confusion from my original post. >_>

I think it's absurd that you're trying to speak of stepcharts in terms of necessity. Exotic Ethnic didn't need to be stepped at all. It's there because it's there. What would be wrong, exactly, with a 7 foot light chart for it? Except for the fact it would be untraditional, there wouldn't be any inherent problem there.

Yes, there is. Light charts are supposed to be for player starting the game. A 9 foot heavy chart doesn't need (or, if you don't want me to use the word "need", let me say "shouldn't have") a 7 foot light chart. Not that it's a major big deal, but that fact still stands.

That's what I was trying to get at with Max. period. Just because it's a Boss Song (which is just a custom by the way, a tradition which isn't technically held in place by any sort of reasoning) doesn't mean the charts have to be so closesly distributed.

You either misworded this or you're agreeing with me 100%.

Maxx Unlimited is an 8 on Standard. I dare you to name me any other 9's on Light, or any song with two 9 charts and two 10 charts, Boss Song or otherwise. The petty traditions you keep appealing to aren't even consistent. That's what I'm getting at. Why I should respect arbitrary limitations as a valid criteria for judgment is question enough, but when they aren't even consistent, that's completely over the line.

Ok wow, I'm starting to lose you here. You seem to be arguing with me on a point I'm not even making. I perfectly agree with everything said here in the first half, in the second half you seem to think I've said something contradictory to this, when I didn't.

By the wayou keep referring to 10 footers, and for the third time, I'm NOT talking about 10 footers.

What you said was a universal statement.

I was not speaking in absolutes. Let's look at what I said again.

It would be perfectly reasonable for somebody to dock points for a slow, low key song being 10 feet instead of something more appropriate.

Note "a" not "any". I did not mean to say that automatically, every slow low key song needs an easy chart. I was just using an EXAMPLE.

----------------------

Keep in mind I said in the VERY FIRST POST that I might be misunderstanding you, so please don't attack me for it, you are being pretty unclear.

------------------------

*I claimed I didn't know why people do this, since the fact a chart is generic has nothing to do with its quality.

Actually, I would say if a chart is generic it has everything to do with quality, but this has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

*I claimed the charts for Max Period go to the music....

I did NOT claim they are good, as this is a matter of opinion.

* As a result of the aforementioned, there have to be some sort of additional judgment criteria to explain why a 10 footer with no double steps deserves to be rated lower than a 7 footer with (or without) double steps, since that's a very common practice in competitions like these. Such criteria have never been articulated.

I agree with all three of these and I assume what you're doing here is clarifying what you actually meant with your very first post, and not trying to argue with me because I did not address any of these things at all.

I don't even know that I have the energy to try again, after this, so try to actually understand the stuff I just typed, as opposed to what you've been doing.

Is this supposed to be an insult? I'm doing my best to understand you which is why in the very first post I mentioned it TWICE.

This whole converstaion could have been avoided if right away you told me I was misunderstanding you instead of arguing with me on the things I DID say, which indicated to me I was correct in my understanding.

summary: I'm completely confused as to what you're saying, I agree with a lot of it, and have no clue why you're arguing with me/insulting me.

Lucky I'm really bored right now so I'm taking the time to respoond to all this, but this is exhausting and all this confusion is not worth my time at the moment. Can we just rewind back to the very first post of mine regarding this and you can just say "no, I meant something else"?

[Camacho]

Why I should respect arbitrary limitations as a valid criteria for judgment is question enough, but when they aren't even consistent, that's completely over the line.

Because last I checked (and I may need to check my sources) this is a DDR competition. That creates a few limitations right off the bat:

- song length
- step style

These among other things.

I actually think you, and a lot of other people are showing a pretty huge misunderstanding here. Being "DDR Style" means, exclusively, that mechanics specific to ITG are not allowed. That means rolls, mines, and hands. That's it. There's nothing else there. In fact, if any of you have even played ITG, you should realize there's a pretty large overlap between "DDR style" and "ITG style" steps. They aren't night and day to each other.

but they are not arbitrary here because we are using DDR as a reference.

....not reallllllllyyy...

The goal of the step file community has always been to try to create an ordinary DDR file that feels authentic and doesn't go to any extremes except in weird circumstances.

I didn't get the memo. If I had I would have jumped on the suspiciously nebulous, unexplained idea of "extremes", especially given that the subsequent words clarify absolutely nothing.

"bag" and "MAX" songs are not the kind of files we aim to make.

Again, I didn't get the memo.

The potential is there for them to feel fan-made, if you will.

Why is the potential greater here? And why should that prevent anyone from trying? I honestly don't think I can believe that excuse. I'll take an Artillery over a Vodka any day. Both of them are fan made, so naturally they both feel fan made. I like one better, because it's novel without sacrificing structure, it progresses well, it goes to the music, and it uses "gimmicks" to good effect. Some of these are present in the other, but the absence of any marks the difference.

I don't know what makes a song feel "fan-made" to you, but I question whether it's anything at all.

Have you even heard of CHAOS? Fascination ~eternal love mix~? Or should I just say SuperNOVA? They're all horrible examples, but it's DDR.

Right, so these are additional exceptions. You pretty much just named two of the best Supernova charts, ironically. Healing D-Vision is a bad chart because it actually formally doesn't go with the music. Nevertheless, it's still another example. I used an example that I thought embodied as many contradictions to established wisdom as I could, though, instead of picking one for each point I wanted to argue.

[Zounder]

Being "DDR Style" means, exclusively, that mechanics specific to ITG are not allowed.

It's often debated as to what exactly "DDR Style" means, but in my personal opinion, I would say it's more than just "Not ITG." After all, how would you define DDR style before ITG existed? o.o

Everyone has their own definition, which is why we have differing step styles.

[Camacho]

Yes, there is. Light charts are supposed to be for player starting the game.

Why do they have to be? And again, Max. Period.

A 9 foot heavy chart doesn't need (or, if you don't want me to use the word "need", let me say "shouldn't have") a 7 foot light chart. Not that it's a major big deal, but that fact still stands.

Well, the opinion still stands. And I can't make heads or tails of it.

You either misworded this or you're agreeing with me 100%.

I'm doing neither. I'm saying something thoroughly unnecessary was also perfectly legitimate, and respectable.

By the wayou keep referring to 10 footers, and for the third time, I'm NOT talking about 10 footers.

You brought them up once at the very start of this, so yes you are. Do you mean you're not talking exclusively about them? Neither am I. But we are both talking about them, so don't try to backpedal.

Note "a" not "any". I did not mean to say that automatically, every slow low key song needs an easy chart. I was just using an EXAMPLE.

Your example is still false for at least one value, Bag. There's no reason to assume it can't be false for more.

Actually, I would say if a chart is generic it has everything to do with quality, but this has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

Yes it does. 9's and 10's are rare. 6's and 7's are common. Hence 6's a 7's are generic. So when you make an appeal to 10's only being appropriate for traditional Boss Song type Songs, and in that same proportion, you're making an appeal to genericness.

[Zounder]

Ok, after reading your last post it is very clear that you have misunderstood me more than I have misunderstood you, and all of most of your points are terrible. (Did you really just claaim 6 footers and 7 footers to be "generic"?) I don't have any more energy to continue this. -_-

[Parama]

C-C-C-Combo breaker!!!

Can we discuss the pack instead of having a debate?