Bracket 2 - Discussion

Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by joe2 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:28 pm

hellrazor wrote:Thanks for chiming in, I'm aware that ITG2 R21 will have a standard due to similar hardware, but it doesn't apply to ITG2 R16 and prior nor to ITG1 or even ITGPC nor ITG for PS2, so there really isn't an ITG standard.

I just want to point out that I can't even think of many machines today that would still run r21 (most have moved on to some form of r23, or openITG), let ALONE r16. When someone says they are syncing to an 'ITG standard', in 9.9/10 cases it is safe to assume they mean an r23 dedicab. As such, there is most definitely a comparable baseline that the community has agreed on for ITG simfiles.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by hellrazor » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:52 pm

joe2 wrote:
hellrazor wrote:Thanks for chiming in, I'm aware that ITG2 R21 will have a standard due to similar hardware, but it doesn't apply to ITG2 R16 and prior nor to ITG1 or even ITGPC nor ITG for PS2, so there really isn't an ITG standard.

I just want to point out that I can't even think of many machines today that would still run r21 (most have moved on to some form of r23, or openITG), let ALONE r16. When someone says they are syncing to an 'ITG standard', in 9.9/10 cases it is safe to assume they mean an r23 dedicab. As such, there is most definitely a comparable baseline that the community has agreed on for ITG simfiles.

R21 and R23 will be identical. Back when I was doing synching for ITG Rebirth 1 I was told that "Walking On Fire" was the best synched ITG song for ITG 2 R21, I based all the OFFSETS from that but after play testing it turned out to be off by 10ms. Other ITG songs were off by different amounts, I have a firm idea of what OFFSET will work with an ITG 2 R23 machine now based on experiences, but there is no single definitive "STANDARD". I learned what the proper ITG 2 R23 sync was based on MungyoDance files, re-synched ITG Rebirth 1, and even then I have a range of about 2ms which is to loose for my desire of ultra-precision, if I had my hands on an official cabinet I'd be able to get the value down to hopefully less than 0.5ms, but until then I just deal with the StepMania sync standard.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by cpubasic13 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:38 pm

hellrazor wrote:I learned what the proper ITG 2 R23 sync was based on MungyoDance files

That's implying there was any syncing involved.

(Hint: there was very minimal syncing required, if any was required at all)
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by rikame » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:52 pm

hellrazor wrote:
joe2 wrote:
hellrazor wrote:Thanks for chiming in, I'm aware that ITG2 R21 will have a standard due to similar hardware, but it doesn't apply to ITG2 R16 and prior nor to ITG1 or even ITGPC nor ITG for PS2, so there really isn't an ITG standard.

I just want to point out that I can't even think of many machines today that would still run r21 (most have moved on to some form of r23, or openITG), let ALONE r16. When someone says they are syncing to an 'ITG standard', in 9.9/10 cases it is safe to assume they mean an r23 dedicab. As such, there is most definitely a comparable baseline that the community has agreed on for ITG simfiles.

R21 and R23 will be identical. Back when I was doing synching for ITG Rebirth 1 I was told that "Walking On Fire" was the best synched ITG song for ITG 2 R21, I based all the OFFSETS from that but after play testing it turned out to be off by 10ms. Other ITG songs were off by different amounts, I have a firm idea of what OFFSET will work with an ITG 2 R23 machine now based on experiences, but there is no single definitive "STANDARD". I learned what the proper ITG 2 R23 sync was based on MungyoDance files, re-synched ITG Rebirth 1, and even then I have a range of about 2ms which is to loose for my desire of ultra-precision, if I had my hands on an official cabinet I'd be able to get the value down to hopefully less than 0.5ms, but until then I just deal with the StepMania sync standard.


It's not really relevant how other files are synced, especially original ITG files. As I understand it, it's best to sync to what will actually register on-sync on ITG2 dedicab hardware with consistent latency. At a 0ms GlobalOffset you are assuming less than 0.5ms latency in the hardware, which isn't realistic (hell, my computer is somewhere around an abysmal 80ms). When there is a well established value, you should sync to it IF the files are intended to be played in such a context. If your step is exactly on beat to the note then the machine should register it as such, and you won't accomplish that by syncing the way that you are (as I said, your sync isn't a big deal and isn't that off, but if you are capable of syncing it as such then you should). I'm honestly not sure how you could ever hope to accomplish 0.5ms latency.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by Valex » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:01 pm

I have no idea what's going on but I'm fairly sure the ~Stepmania sync standard~ is literally a null offset, and any further offset changes is due to your computer setup

This isn't taking ITG into account

And it's possible to get very precise sync nowadays merely by analyzing the waveform, you really shouldn't be testing the sync of your files by just playing them
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by hellrazor » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:15 pm

Valex wrote:I have no idea what's going on but I'm fairly sure the ~Stepmania sync standard~ is literally a null offset, and any further offset changes is due to your computer setup

This isn't taking ITG into account

And it's possible to get very precise sync nowadays merely by analyzing the waveform, you really shouldn't be testing the sync of your files by just playing them

But that assumes zero lag caused by your computer and StepMania and your EAR on the speaker. The best you can get with a very precise waveform to find the zero-beat will be your own OFFSET standard, so you could set the GlobalOffset of your setup to match that song and all future songs that you sync the same way will be fine. I'm also fairly certain that the SM4.0 sync standard is established that way based on the zero-beat of the waveform.

I'm not sure what is meant by latency, my goal would be to sync a song to less than 1ms at about 4 feet away from the cabinet on an ITG2 R21 machine so that on future songs I would then have a standard to base OFFSETS from.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by Lisek » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:20 pm

review smth ppl
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by will-i-am » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:51 pm

^
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by Telperion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:00 pm

Valex wrote:I have no idea what's going on but I'm fairly sure the ~Stepmania sync standard~ is literally a null offset, and any further offset changes is due to your computer setup

This isn't taking ITG into account


Actually, I just took a look at the ~Stepmania sync standard~ and, guess what? it's waveform sync +9ms, the current ITG r21 sync standard. So, provided you have excellent - no, fantastic! - keyboard FA, you could potentially sync your SM's GlobalOffset to that file and be correct.

However, that still doesn't explain Change being about 25ms early (whereas I just checked 2011 The Aftermash and it's near dead-on)...yet transcoding OGGs to MP3s with Audacity is known to add 25ms of silence at the beginning. just sayin'
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by hellrazor » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:56 pm

Telperion wrote:
Valex wrote:I have no idea what's going on but I'm fairly sure the ~Stepmania sync standard~ is literally a null offset, and any further offset changes is due to your computer setup

This isn't taking ITG into account


Actually, I just took a look at the ~Stepmania sync standard~ and, guess what? it's waveform sync +9ms, the current ITG r21 sync standard. So, provided you have excellent - no, fantastic! - keyboard FA, you could potentially sync your SM's GlobalOffset to that file and be correct.

However, that still doesn't explain Change being about 25ms early (whereas I just checked 2011 The Aftermash and it's near dead-on)...yet transcoding OGGs to MP3s with Audacity is known to add 25ms of silence at the beginning. just sayin'

Cool, I didn't have Change as an .OGG, it's always been a .mp3, and Change and 2011 should be identical, they play just fine for me... Now I have always wondered if StepMania treats .OGG and .MP3 the same, such as any lag caused by StepMania which is ironed out in the GlobalOffset is different for .MP3 and .OGG. It would only be noticeable if you sync by waveform, since I use the StepMania editor to get the actual play-tested values it shouldn't affect me; I re-sync each and every song that goes into my dance game. But I've always been curious about that.

Oh and why did you remove points for double-stepping for "Change" - Expert but not for the other files? For instance "Rising" - Expert beats 137.5 and 139 are double-steps with also enough time to make them easy to hit so they are very similar to the ones you docked Change for having. I understand removing points for double-stepping, that's precisely what I did to remain unbiased with my judgements but it seems like you removed points simply to be biased and that normally you wouldn't have cared but you wanted to be biased. You'll notice I did not decrease points in the Steps for a song that I thought was repetitive and caused repetitive arrows. There was nothing personal in my judgements I based each file by it's own merits no matter whom created it or even if I liked the song at all (I gave high scores to some files that I don't even want to ever play again) because I was not biased however if you decrease points for one feature of one chart but not on any of the others that is simply being biased and not a very good judge.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by sudzi781 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:29 pm

hellrazor wrote:Oh and why did you remove points for double-stepping for "Change" - Expert but not for the other files? For instance "Rising" - Expert beats 137.5 and 139 are double-steps with also enough time to make them easy to hit so they are very similar to the ones you docked Change for having.

Looking at Rising, the doublesteps are there to be pitch-relevant, they're accenting the repeating notes in the music. It irks me slightly that there isn't a mine to signal the doublestep, which makes the pattern less sightreadable, but it's still a valid way to bring out the subtleties in the music through patterning. Same thing happens in Kung-Fu Empire, repeating notes accented by the doublestep pattern. Personally, I don't really see what makes the doublesteps in Change relevant, though since you made them exactly two measures apart, I'm guessing you found them appropriate.
Last edited by sudzi781 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by Telperion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:34 pm

I didn't mark off for the doublesteps haha, it was the other stuff I mentioned (especially the repetitiveness) that affected my rating
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by Aki » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:48 pm

Sync or swim situations...
We're all soldiers now.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by hellrazor » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:26 am

Telperion wrote:I didn't mark off for the doublesteps haha, it was the other stuff I mentioned (especially the repetitiveness) that affected my rating

Okay, thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Bracket 2 - Download & Discussion

by Silverhawke » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:13 am

I saw this thread gained several pages.

I went and read it.

It was, to put it simply, "sync sync sync sync".

I thought everyone entering a contest like this knew how to sync beforehand.
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