Bracket 2 - Discussion

[hellrazor]

To me, graphics are VERY important, however, it's perfectly understandable if you are good making charts, but not so at graphics. This is why in real dancing games, they have a group who works with steps, and another group to work exclusively with graphics. This means that you, as a simfile maker, must be both teams at once. I'm not saying that you have to be a great graphic artist in order to be a good simfile maker (it would make you more complete though!), but I think it's pretty clear when some graphic you create is absolute crap. When I do my graphics, I always have a goal in mind: they can't be horrible. If it looks horrible to me, it will look horrible to everybody else.

You might say, "but people have different tastes, you can like something that others might hate", but that's not true, there are basic guidelines to graphics creation that basically tell you how to NOT to make something horrible. This pretty much applies to stepchart creation too.

You are fighting a losing battle, the graphics are just images, I've never deleted a simfile due to poor graphics but I've deleted tons due to poor steps, to me graphics are just there for fun, something cute to look at and it wouldn't bother me to play with a pure black screen, since the game is about the music and steps, and the only way I'm going to have a good graphic is if I can find it on the internet where I can just piece together finished images (see Power Of Thy Sword) why should I get many points for copy/paste of someone else's work?

Not to mention, I would much prefer to have a music video to watch than a still image anyday so music videos should get more credit than a bg image.

DDR apparently agrees since SuperNova has given up on graphics for watching random bg dancers on random stages or bgvideos and I think that's excellent. And I could see a competition w/o graphics, many of the R21 packs don't include graphics since you can't see them on ITG2 machines anyways.

Fact is this isn't a photography competition, nor an english competition, nor an art competition, and you shouldn't expect people to be an artist as much as I don't expect others to be perfect synchers (you have had as much time as I have to become a perfect syncher, there's no excuse why you aren't yet...) it's a step competition. That aside, some of you guys are excellent artists and I am in awe of your abilities.

[BLueSS]

More anonymous author comments:

(Original PR)

tkO -
The background looks nice but looks as if it a stock image went through a couple of Photoshop filters and voila, the finished product.

(Reply)

"It's a bit unfair to assume that my graphics ere made out of stock art. Everything in that was done from scratch, with the exception of a few brushes that I used before additional effects. In the future it would be prudent for you to be more unassuming in your reviewing!"

"It looks like you did X" is almost always dumb

Next Reply:

"So far, my file, Kimi no Machi Made, has received two reviews:

Asian Kung-Fu Generation -
Where do I begin... I don't know. Tell me why I should rate such a generic J-rock song with generic run-of-the-mill steps and a generic background with text over it and I will go into more detail.
4.0

Kimi no Machi Made
Steps:[4/6]
I feel the Heavy steps lacked composure and I favor the Oni for this song, although I do not like the jump, step, jump, step, jumps.
Presentation:[2/4]
Pink text on top of a flower. nuff said.
Total:[6/10]

The first reviewer won't even review my file (Is that allowed?) But the reason I'm angry is because both reviewers cite poor graphics as one of their reasons for the low (or non-existent) score. Let me be the first to say that I know my graphics suck. I spent hours in photoshop. That flower (which I thought was cool ) was the best I could come up with. In order to make up for the lack of uber-amazing graphics, I included a beginner chart, a challenge chart, and lyrics. I've heard some people say, "If your graphics suck, get someone else to do them." Well, even though I suck at it, I enjoy making my own graphics. Getting someone else to do them would be like telling Bruce Springsteen to write songs, but get someone else to sing them.

Sorry for making this so long, I just want to get my thoughts out."

[CoreyBlaze]

To me, graphics are VERY important, however, it's perfectly understandable if you are good making charts, but not so at graphics. This is why in real dancing games, they have a group who works with steps, and another group to work exclusively with graphics. This means that you, as a simfile maker, must be both teams at once. I'm not saying that you have to be a great graphic artist in order to be a good simfile maker (it would make you more complete though!), but I think it's pretty clear when some graphic you create is absolute crap. When I do my graphics, I always have a goal in mind: they can't be horrible. If it looks horrible to me, it will look horrible to everybody else.

You might say, "but people have different tastes, you can like something that others might hate", but that's not true, there are basic guidelines to graphics creation that basically tell you how to NOT to make something horrible. This pretty much applies to stepchart creation too.

You are fighting a losing battle, the graphics are just images, I've never deleted a simfile due to poor graphics but I've deleted tons due to poor steps, to me graphics are just there for fun, something cute to look at and it wouldn't bother me to play with a pure black screen, since the game is about the music and steps, and the only way I'm going to have a good graphic is if I can find it on the internet where I can just piece together finished images (see Power Of Thy Sword) why should I get many points for copy/paste of someone else's work?

Not to mention, I would much prefer to have a music video to watch than a still image anyday so music videos should get more credit than a bg image.

DDR apparently agrees since SuperNova has given up on graphics for watching random bg dancers on random stages or bgvideos and I think that's excellent. And I could see a competition w/o graphics, many of the R21 packs don't include graphics since you can't see them on ITG2 machines anyways.

Fact is this isn't a photography competition, nor an english competition, nor an art competition, and you shouldn't expect people to be an artist as much as I don't expect others to be perfect synchers (you have had as much time as I have to become a perfect syncher, there's no excuse why you aren't yet...) it's a step competition. That aside, some of you guys are excellent artists and I am in awe of your abilities.

Well, you certainly made some good points, but since not every song has a video or SM doesn't have default SN-like backgrounds, a good, nice-looking image should be mandatory for a competition like this.

A solution to this would be going the zenius-i-vanisher way. Since SN songs lack backgrounds, they made a default background image for every song, but we, as simfile makers, still would need to make a good different banner for each song. Like it or not, graphics ARE important, and I will pick a song with good steps and good graphics over a song with good steps but crap graphics anyday of the week and twice on sunday.

[Setjsinn]

You are fighting a losing battle, the graphics are just images, I've never deleted a simfile due to poor graphics but I've deleted tons due to poor steps, to me graphics are just there for fun, something cute to look at and it wouldn't bother me to play with a pure black screen, since the game is about the music and steps, and the only way I'm going to have a good graphic is if I can find it on the internet where I can just piece together finished images (see Power Of Thy Sword) why should I get many points for copy/paste of someone else's work?

Here, it seems as though you discount production values in full. However…

Not to mention, I would much prefer to have a music video to watch than a still image anyday so music videos should get more credit than a bg image.

So which is it? To me, it seems like you are against files with good graphics but for files with background videos. Are you suggesting that cutting a background video takes more work than creating a background image from scratch in Photoshop? You can’t have it both ways; by that, I mean, you can’t say that graphics are unimportant and then turn around and give accolade to authors cut background movies. First, images obviously take more work, and second, both are fairly superficial.

And we don’t even have to talk about the fact that CoreyBlaze isn’t really fighting anything at all; you are. Graphics are and always have been part of a complete file. They are judged in best-mix as far as I know, and will likely continue to be. The person who is in-fact wrong is you, unless you are arguing that graphics should not be judged at all, in which case videos, lyrics files, cdtitles, doubles/solo/beginner/challenge steps, and the like could all be ignored, as well.

Your bias is showing.

DDR apparently agrees since SuperNova has given up on graphics for watching random bg dancers on random stages or bgvideos and I think that's excellent. And I could see a competition w/o graphics, many of the R21 packs don't include graphics since you can't see them on ITG2 machines anyways.

Actually, DDR can’t agree with you since it’s not a person nor company, but a game.

Konami, however, has chosen to use “random bg dancers on random stages” mostly due to laziness and not due to any real stance on the “issue.” Supernova only exists because Konami needed justification for their In the Groove lawsuit, and Supernova gave it to them. Supernova sold enough to turn a profit, so they made a sequel. Supernova 3 seems unlikely, and 4 seems even less so.

Fact is this isn't a photography competition, nor an english competition, nor an art competition, and you shouldn't expect people to be an artist as much as I don't expect others to be perfect synchers (you have had as much time as I have to become a perfect syncher, there's no excuse why you aren't yet...) it's a step competition. That aside, some of you guys are excellent artists and I am in awe of your abilities.

1. Gap is based on your sound card. Global gap is an impractical concept. Be realistic and get used to syncing files before you play them.
2. This is a “stepfile” competition, and “stepfile” doesn’t necessarily refer to steps, but usually does refer to the entire package. That means videos, cdtitles, steps (especially steps) and yes, even graphics.

To be quite honest, I don’t see what you’re complaining about at all. Ten out of ten times, steps are worth more than graphics (usually much more so). Presentation is worth a lot in best mix, but it’s because it has to be. It covers much, much more than graphics. Giving a 10-point allocation for everything that isn’t an arrow just doesn’t make sense.

[DGJ]

i'm pretty surprised at the lack of cdtitles, something ridiculously simple to make, for what appears to be the majority of entries. it's as if people deemed them unnecessary since they couldn't put their own name or whatever on them.

[will-i-am]

The anonymous Asian Kung-Fu guy is spot on with his opinions. If a reviewer is biased, unfair, or does not review single file, the person's reviews should be deemed invalid. Raf has no idea how to judge presentation and he is giving great stepfiles demerits for having sub-par graphics, even if the simfile has plenty of extras to make up for the graphics. THIS IS NOT A BEAUTY CONTEST PEOPLE! Seeing this happen, when it was clearly stated that Presentation is NOT soley based on graphics or extras, when someone doesn't even take in the fact that a simfile has extras and is totally neglecting even noticing them is really ticking me off.

Spring
Presentation:[1/4]
Jagged text.

What is this?! The fact that the banner and bg make total sense to the song is marked 3 points for having... "Jagged text"?

Presentation is supposed to be fair, but when I see this concept not taking effect on public reviews, why even have "Presentation"? Please don't ruin this great new concept of grading files.

[Oni-91]

i'm pretty surprised at the lack of cdtitles, something ridiculously simple to make, for what appears to be the majority of entries. it's as if people deemed them unnecessary since they couldn't put their own name or whatever on them.

Exactly. So simple, it's so easy to forget.

[hellrazor]

So which is it? To me, it seems like you are against files with good graphics but for files with background videos. Are you suggesting that cutting a background video takes more work than creating a background image from scratch in Photoshop? You can’t have it both ways; by that, I mean, you can’t say that graphics are unimportant and then turn around and give accolade to authors cut background movies. First, images obviously take more work, and second, both are fairly superficial.

Huh? It's just as I said, I would rather have a black BG image and a music video than a fancy BG image. I am not against files with good graphics, I like it, but I would still rather the file have a video as well. I know it's much less work to add a video than an image, I've done WAY more videos than images, it's less work and looks better so a plain victor in my book.

Let me get this straight, if it takes more work then it's better. So then songs like Dark Blue and Caravan of Love have a natural advantage since they took more time to sync than the other files and more work means they are better, and the hardest charts are better than easier charts since they take more work.

And when I discuss Sync, it's more than a GAP, it's BPM's, STOPs, making the GAP consistent so that if you had created 50 simfiles and when I re-synched any one of your files and it changed by -.013 then I could change all of the files by -.013 and they would all be flawless (I haven't seen anybody able to do that yet!!!! although Mungyodance files were closest so far).

Anyways, my point is that it doesn't have to take more work to be better.

[DGJ]

i'm pretty surprised at the lack of cdtitles, something ridiculously simple to make, for what appears to be the majority of entries. it's as if people deemed them unnecessary since they couldn't put their own name or whatever on them.

Exactly. So simple, it's so easy to forget.

well then the stepmania community is suffering from an epidemic of forgetfulness that should probably be investigated by the dept. of health

[tammie]

This is my impression of you guys:

[will-i-am]

This is my impression of you guys:

[alphabet55]

Spring
Presentation:[1/4]
Jagged text.

What is this?! The fact that the banner and bg make total sense to the song is marked 3 points for having... "Jagged text"?

Presentation is supposed to be fair, but when I see this concept not taking effect on public reviews, why even have "Presentation"? Please don't ruin this great new concept of grading files.

After I read that, I went in and looked at the background for Spring... and laughed. I wish I had enough time to write reviews, if only to give 90% of the entries 4/4 presentation points.

[TakeWalker]

You are fighting a losing battle, the graphics are just images, I've never deleted a simfile due to poor graphics but I've deleted tons due to poor steps, to me graphics are just there for fun, something cute to look at and it wouldn't bother me to play with a pure black screen, since the game is about the music and steps, and the only way I'm going to have a good graphic is if I can find it on the internet where I can just piece together finished images (see Power Of Thy Sword) why should I get many points for copy/paste of someone else's work?

Not to mention, I would much prefer to have a music video to watch than a still image anyday so music videos should get more credit than a bg image.

DDR apparently agrees since SuperNova has given up on graphics for watching random bg dancers on random stages or bgvideos and I think that's excellent. And I could see a competition w/o graphics, many of the R21 packs don't include graphics since you can't see them on ITG2 machines anyways.

Fact is this isn't a photography competition, nor an english competition, nor an art competition, and you shouldn't expect people to be an artist as much as I don't expect others to be perfect synchers (you have had as much time as I have to become a perfect syncher, there's no excuse why you aren't yet...) it's a step competition. That aside, some of you guys are excellent artists and I am in awe of your abilities.

First, I agree that I've deleted no simfile because its graphics were horrible. At the very least, if the background is that eye-munchingly irritating, I can just delete the graphics. All my personal favorites are based on quality and enjoyability of the Heavy/Challenge charts.

Now, I don't know if I'd be putting words into your mouth here, but I read this and think, you know, I could play a good chart with zero graphics, but it seems to me that, if you're going to bother making graphics in the first place, you should really put at least a little effort into making something worth seeing. Something that fits the song, that doesn't interfere with the play area, that isn't made of horribly clashing colors or awful copypasta'd image macros. I'd much rather see no graphics at all than crappy ones.

[BLueSS]

Few More Anonymous Feedbacks:

I figure I should offer these objections to a few public reviews of Metallic Mind before it's too late:

Presentation:[0/4]
Graphics are pretty bland and ugly. A brain layered on top of some static. Very nasty. Ew.

Presentation is more than graphics.

metallic mind: 3/10

heavy is a 9, not an 8. banner and bg pretty uninteresting.

So if steps are 6, and presentation is 4, what this says to me is that "uninteresting graphics" is grounds for a 0 out of 4 on graphics, and one chart being off by one foot must make the file's steps a 3 out of 6, with no other comments whatsoever? I think that's ridiculous on both counts. The other ways to arrange the scores only exascerbate the problem. If there's enough stuff wrong for it to be a 3, you really should give me some kind of indication what it is, unless you're implying that i'd gain the three points by rating it one higher, which, again, is ridiculous. Then again, a 0/10 for "too long" - although well within the rules - doesn't speak well to your judging either. That, as well, is a point or two at most in presentation, not a DQ.

So far I've had three reviews: two 6.5s and a 7.4. If I got it right, that's an average of 6.8.

For a file which I thought was going to get slaughtered, that's not too bad...still, I'm not going to rest on my laurels (if said things exist) yet... Keep up the feedback, please!

[BLueSS]

Also looks like all the judging will be able to come out tomorrow.